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	<title>Comments on: Of Gods and Women</title>
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		<title>By: Round-Up of Run-Downs &#124; Cherie Priest</title>
		<link>http://www.cheriepriest.com/2008/05/29/of-gods-and-women/comment-page-1/#comment-3723</link>
		<dc:creator>Round-Up of Run-Downs &#124; Cherie Priest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheriepriest.com/?p=464#comment-3723</guid>
		<description>[...] Texas Mormon fringe sect may lose 8 of its 400 kids. I&#8217;ve already said my piece on this matter, but the follow-up remains interesting. I think that the lawyers are right to debate if this is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Texas Mormon fringe sect may lose 8 of its 400 kids. I&#8217;ve already said my piece on this matter, but the follow-up remains interesting. I think that the lawyers are right to debate if this is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Natalie</title>
		<link>http://www.cheriepriest.com/2008/05/29/of-gods-and-women/comment-page-1/#comment-2637</link>
		<dc:creator>Natalie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 12:14:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheriepriest.com/?p=464#comment-2637</guid>
		<description>You might find it interesting to pick up a book by Carolyn Jessup, who recently made the break from this very group...with her 8 children.  Certainly not one of the ones who wasn&#039;t fully aware of what she was facing and what she was leaving behind.  Although it&#039;s sometimes hard to read, often hard to believe (especially that this didn&#039;t happen decades ago instead of a few years ago), and to be honest...frequently down right &quot;catty&quot;, it&#039;s none the less an interesting insight into the day to day life as well as some of the history.  

I think one of the most important things I took from the book was the background on how these people are taught about plural marriages.  It also deals a little with the Lost Boys from a first hand account.  

I suggest reading it with an open mind and not expecting it to solve the conundrum!  It would be easy to come away saying she&#039;s just one bitter woman and clearly exaggerating.  It would be easy to say all those men are deranged sex-crazed tyrants with delusions of grandeur.  It&#039;s just not that simple.  But, you already knew that!  

I appreciate the way you focused in on how what you grow up with seems like the whole world.  

I wish more people could see that vulnerability.  You can&#039;t communicate with these people on what you consider a rational basis, because their family/church has told them for years exactly what you will say about them and assured them that your unbelief is proof you are the devil.

&quot;We are special, we are chosen, we are following the truth, and anyone who tells you anything differently is an instrument of Satan trying to deceive you.&quot;

For someone who came from an outside the mainstream religious background herself...those kind of teachings are insidiously scary.

At a fundamental level, they take away a person&#039;s ability to think for themselves.  

Have a doubt? 

Fight it off!  It&#039;s a demonic attack!  

Not sure you should hand over your daughter with a blissful smile?  

You mean you would risk your daughters eternal soul by not allowing her this chance to marry the man who can take her with him into the next life?  

Don&#039;t think for a moment that all this hasn&#039;t been covered from every angle for as far back as these women can remember.  They aren&#039;t just evading your questions about their lifestyle out of some sense of shame...they are proud of themselves for having the strength to resist your attempts to destroy them.  They used to play games in the backyard about what they would do when they were persecuted just this way.  


And it just breaks my heart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might find it interesting to pick up a book by Carolyn Jessup, who recently made the break from this very group&#8230;with her 8 children.  Certainly not one of the ones who wasn&#8217;t fully aware of what she was facing and what she was leaving behind.  Although it&#8217;s sometimes hard to read, often hard to believe (especially that this didn&#8217;t happen decades ago instead of a few years ago), and to be honest&#8230;frequently down right &#8220;catty&#8221;, it&#8217;s none the less an interesting insight into the day to day life as well as some of the history.  </p>
<p>I think one of the most important things I took from the book was the background on how these people are taught about plural marriages.  It also deals a little with the Lost Boys from a first hand account.  </p>
<p>I suggest reading it with an open mind and not expecting it to solve the conundrum!  It would be easy to come away saying she&#8217;s just one bitter woman and clearly exaggerating.  It would be easy to say all those men are deranged sex-crazed tyrants with delusions of grandeur.  It&#8217;s just not that simple.  But, you already knew that!  </p>
<p>I appreciate the way you focused in on how what you grow up with seems like the whole world.  </p>
<p>I wish more people could see that vulnerability.  You can&#8217;t communicate with these people on what you consider a rational basis, because their family/church has told them for years exactly what you will say about them and assured them that your unbelief is proof you are the devil.</p>
<p>&#8220;We are special, we are chosen, we are following the truth, and anyone who tells you anything differently is an instrument of Satan trying to deceive you.&#8221;</p>
<p>For someone who came from an outside the mainstream religious background herself&#8230;those kind of teachings are insidiously scary.</p>
<p>At a fundamental level, they take away a person&#8217;s ability to think for themselves.  </p>
<p>Have a doubt? </p>
<p>Fight it off!  It&#8217;s a demonic attack!  </p>
<p>Not sure you should hand over your daughter with a blissful smile?  </p>
<p>You mean you would risk your daughters eternal soul by not allowing her this chance to marry the man who can take her with him into the next life?  </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t think for a moment that all this hasn&#8217;t been covered from every angle for as far back as these women can remember.  They aren&#8217;t just evading your questions about their lifestyle out of some sense of shame&#8230;they are proud of themselves for having the strength to resist your attempts to destroy them.  They used to play games in the backyard about what they would do when they were persecuted just this way.  </p>
<p>And it just breaks my heart.</p>
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		<title>By: James McNeill</title>
		<link>http://www.cheriepriest.com/2008/05/29/of-gods-and-women/comment-page-1/#comment-2634</link>
		<dc:creator>James McNeill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 04:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheriepriest.com/?p=464#comment-2634</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a hard problem knowing the state&#039;s role.  I&#039;m not terribly well-informed about the splinter LDS groups.  I&#039;ve heard that they draw large amounts of welfare and evict young men (to keep the sex ratio favorable) who happen to lack education or much in the way of job skills.  If these are true then I think the state is justified in intervening to some extent, since we are bearing the costs of the compound lifestyle.  A sect that was a net boon to the economy would bother me less.

The thing that makes me angry is that distinctive cultures (Adventists to an extent, and splinter compounds much more so) are often maintained by deliberately isolating members from the outside world.  They do this by having a highly unusual culture (American Adventists eschew meat, don&#039;t swim on Saturday, frown on jewelry, no vinegar, etc.) or by demonising outsiders.  I just don&#039;t believe this is ever healthy; it serves the group to the detriment of the individuals.

Most variants of Christianity also have the unfortunate core message &quot;You are no good.&quot;  This tactic is characteristic of abusive spouses, too.  Again it serves group cohesion but harms group members.  A lot of Christians believe that without their belief in God they would go on rampages of rape or murder or whatever.

When I was in the process of leaving the Adventist church I didn&#039;t think I would be able to find a girlfriend who would understand me and tolerate me without having been ex-Adventist herself.  I worked hard to catch up on popular culture.  I learned how to eat meat (at least when it&#039;s not recognizable as body parts).  Fortunately it&#039;s semi-cool to be vegetarian here in Seattle.

When you change cultures there&#039;s a big hump to get over and you may never find people with whom you truly feel you belong.

I think being friendly and encouraging connectedness is the best way to help people who are in isolated circumstances.  It&#039;s hard, though.

Sorry I don&#039;t have much insight to offer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a hard problem knowing the state&#8217;s role.  I&#8217;m not terribly well-informed about the splinter LDS groups.  I&#8217;ve heard that they draw large amounts of welfare and evict young men (to keep the sex ratio favorable) who happen to lack education or much in the way of job skills.  If these are true then I think the state is justified in intervening to some extent, since we are bearing the costs of the compound lifestyle.  A sect that was a net boon to the economy would bother me less.</p>
<p>The thing that makes me angry is that distinctive cultures (Adventists to an extent, and splinter compounds much more so) are often maintained by deliberately isolating members from the outside world.  They do this by having a highly unusual culture (American Adventists eschew meat, don&#8217;t swim on Saturday, frown on jewelry, no vinegar, etc.) or by demonising outsiders.  I just don&#8217;t believe this is ever healthy; it serves the group to the detriment of the individuals.</p>
<p>Most variants of Christianity also have the unfortunate core message &#8220;You are no good.&#8221;  This tactic is characteristic of abusive spouses, too.  Again it serves group cohesion but harms group members.  A lot of Christians believe that without their belief in God they would go on rampages of rape or murder or whatever.</p>
<p>When I was in the process of leaving the Adventist church I didn&#8217;t think I would be able to find a girlfriend who would understand me and tolerate me without having been ex-Adventist herself.  I worked hard to catch up on popular culture.  I learned how to eat meat (at least when it&#8217;s not recognizable as body parts).  Fortunately it&#8217;s semi-cool to be vegetarian here in Seattle.</p>
<p>When you change cultures there&#8217;s a big hump to get over and you may never find people with whom you truly feel you belong.</p>
<p>I think being friendly and encouraging connectedness is the best way to help people who are in isolated circumstances.  It&#8217;s hard, though.</p>
<p>Sorry I don&#8217;t have much insight to offer.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.cheriepriest.com/2008/05/29/of-gods-and-women/comment-page-1/#comment-2633</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 01:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheriepriest.com/?p=464#comment-2633</guid>
		<description>I mostly agree, though I&#039;d like to add in the practice of forced male genital mutilation as well. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mostly agree, though I&#8217;d like to add in the practice of forced male genital mutilation as well. ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Cherie</title>
		<link>http://www.cheriepriest.com/2008/05/29/of-gods-and-women/comment-page-1/#comment-2632</link>
		<dc:creator>Cherie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 22:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheriepriest.com/?p=464#comment-2632</guid>
		<description>Well, in this situation it&#039;s the young women who are being abused (allegedly); ergo the focus on the feminine vis-a-vis victimization and privilege.  When the women outnumber the men at least three to one (as their religion dictates they must), the female social dynamic is what interests me here.  Also, I&#039;m not a man -- and I can only offer thoughts and observations from my own context and framing.

Though for what it&#039;s worth, if you&#039;d check that bottom footnote you&#039;d see that I don&#039;t think this system of enforced plurals is ultimately any better for men than it is for women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, in this situation it&#8217;s the young women who are being abused (allegedly); ergo the focus on the feminine vis-a-vis victimization and privilege.  When the women outnumber the men at least three to one (as their religion dictates they must), the female social dynamic is what interests me here.  Also, I&#8217;m not a man &#8212; and I can only offer thoughts and observations from my own context and framing.</p>
<p>Though for what it&#8217;s worth, if you&#8217;d check that bottom footnote you&#8217;d see that I don&#8217;t think this system of enforced plurals is ultimately any better for men than it is for women.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.cheriepriest.com/2008/05/29/of-gods-and-women/comment-page-1/#comment-2631</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 22:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheriepriest.com/?p=464#comment-2631</guid>
		<description>I do not know where to draw that line. Rather, I would like to point out something that reached out and hit me while reading this: many of your comments are sexist.

Why &quot;divine &lt;i&gt;male&lt;/i&gt; authority&quot; instead of simply &quot;divine authority&quot;? Why &quot;a flawed &lt;i&gt;man&lt;/i&gt; who speaks on behalf of God&quot;? I submit that any &lt;i&gt;person&lt;/i&gt;, male or female, seen as holding divinely-granted authority would have the same influence, and it is simply the context of Judeo-Christian religion that gives us examples weighted to the male. The great Queens, Priestesses, and Prophetesses of antiquity were just as authoritative. One didn&#039;t just blow off the Oracle at Delphi with impunity, for example. 

I&#039;m not saying that the case in Texas wasn&#039;t the work of men. What I am saying is that cultural indoctrination and the nature of authority are human psychological phenomena that have nothing to do with gender, and I am disturbed by the subtextual assumption that they are the purview of men alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not know where to draw that line. Rather, I would like to point out something that reached out and hit me while reading this: many of your comments are sexist.</p>
<p>Why &#8220;divine <i>male</i> authority&#8221; instead of simply &#8220;divine authority&#8221;? Why &#8220;a flawed <i>man</i> who speaks on behalf of God&#8221;? I submit that any <i>person</i>, male or female, seen as holding divinely-granted authority would have the same influence, and it is simply the context of Judeo-Christian religion that gives us examples weighted to the male. The great Queens, Priestesses, and Prophetesses of antiquity were just as authoritative. One didn&#8217;t just blow off the Oracle at Delphi with impunity, for example. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that the case in Texas wasn&#8217;t the work of men. What I am saying is that cultural indoctrination and the nature of authority are human psychological phenomena that have nothing to do with gender, and I am disturbed by the subtextual assumption that they are the purview of men alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Cherie</title>
		<link>http://www.cheriepriest.com/2008/05/29/of-gods-and-women/comment-page-1/#comment-2629</link>
		<dc:creator>Cherie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 19:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheriepriest.com/?p=464#comment-2629</guid>
		<description>Gosh, thank you.  I feel like I&#039;m condensing too much and leaving too much out; but likewise I feel that any more content might just turn into background noise, a bit of TL;DR.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh, thank you.  I feel like I&#8217;m condensing too much and leaving too much out; but likewise I feel that any more content might just turn into background noise, a bit of TL;DR.</p>
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		<title>By: Aden</title>
		<link>http://www.cheriepriest.com/2008/05/29/of-gods-and-women/comment-page-1/#comment-2628</link>
		<dc:creator>Aden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 19:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheriepriest.com/?p=464#comment-2628</guid>
		<description>This was an incredibly well-articulated examination of a deep and intense conflict... I think you&#039;ve treated the issue with &lt;em&gt;much&lt;/em&gt; more thought than most we see publically discussing it.

You&#039;ve raised a lot of very salient points to consider. This is an article to stew on for a couple hours...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was an incredibly well-articulated examination of a deep and intense conflict&#8230; I think you&#8217;ve treated the issue with <em>much</em> more thought than most we see publically discussing it.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve raised a lot of very salient points to consider. This is an article to stew on for a couple hours&#8230;</p>
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